【第二页已上图】求助，房东不退还security deposit，怎么破

房子的租期是今年6月1日到8月1日，租金750每月，security deposit同样的数目。

8月1日查房的时候房东发现她的granite counter top有一块变色了，很不高兴，想把整块counter top换了，说要扣留

我们的security deposit，会找公司报价之后再联系我们。她说肯定是我们把烫的锅子直接放在台子上造成的。我们一

直不承认。因为那一块地方是放的调料，从来没有放过锅子。而且granite就是因为抗高温的特点，才卖的比较贵的。

她说换变色的部分counter top不会太多，也就几百块。

我们当时就觉得，几百块对她来说不多，对我们来说太多了，就据理力争。
首先，变色的原因不明，如果是因为烫坏了，那就根本不是我们，如果是其他原因，倒有可能；
第二，我们不能确定在我们来之前是不是已经变色了。她说我没有在入住查房的时候写下来。我说这种事情根本就不算

个事，肯定不会写啊。同样，因为我觉得这种事情不算个事儿，所以我觉得不需要把它敲掉换新的。如果这种事情都要

写下来的话，那哪里写的下。房子交到我手上的时候，小毛病太多了，这里一块污点那里有一点灰尘这些事情如果我都

要记录的话，怎么可能呢

当时这个事情没有谈拢，只是说如果要找人来检查的时候，我们要求到场。
房东的另一个要求，打扫房间，我们答应了。因为房东要走，就让我们留下来打扫。我们打扫完拍了照片。

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从那天以后我们就开始找人问灶台的事情，一个是想搞清楚原因，另一个是想看看能否补救。
最后经过多方调查，问熟人，上网查等等，觉得可能是油污渗透，并且没法清除。

这期间我们问了很多人，有劝我们争取见面好好谈的（虽然我不看好这个建议），实在不行就算了，750不要了；有直

接让我们到小额法庭告状的，各有各的理，搞得人头大。而房东本身的不听解释、执意要换、不愿意再见面的态度，也

让我们很烦恼。

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房东不愿意再见面好好谈，希望用email解决，其实也是符合我的想法的。毕竟有文本，比口说无凭要好些。

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直到半个月前，房东给我们发来邮件，出人意料的是，信中又提出了清洁问题。好在最后另一个房客Vania解决了这个问题。


以下是email内容，

Jessica和她妈妈是房东。我和Rui和Wei是房客，其中Wei是暑假从Vania手上sublease的。


. ----1

Jess Sheng 8月15日 发送至 Vania, shenwei, Rui, 我

Hi all,

Just wanted to give everyone an update on the status of security deposits.

省略三段讨论房子清洁问题的内容

Also, there is the issue of the granite counter top that was damaged. It was installed just before I left in early June and was damaged by the end of July. We have photos of what the area looks like and have sent them to the company that we purchased the counter top from. They requested pictures and said that would be sufficient and did not need to come to physically see the counter top. Their quote for damages will be finalized and I will share a scanned copy of their documentation with all of you. Because I was not present during this time period, I again will ask you as a group to decide how this cost will be divided. Their documentation will also contain a description of what they believe caused the damage (at the point in time I believe they attribute it to oil becoming trapped inside the stone). I do not know who used the area more or less or if there was any specific incident that happened that caused this. Those of you who were living there probably have a better idea of how things were going during that month.

Please respond as a group reply with any questions or discussion so that everyone can have an idea of what is going on (unless you want to discuss division of costs separately among yourselves that is fine). I will respond when I have time to, just a note that responses may take longer due to my work schedule.

Thanks,
Jessica

2
Vania Leung 8月16日 发送至 Jess, shenwei, Rui, 我

主要是反驳清洁问题

Dear Jessica,
. .и

The state of the kitchen was actually a complete mess when I moved in. I spent an entire day scrubbing the fridge, kitchen floors, appliances, and kitchen pantry.
The bathroom was also a disgusting mess with mold everywhere and the grout rotting. My boyfriend actually spent another day scrubbing the mold out as well, and I had informed you about the rotting grout and the board falling off the cabinet.
.

I did not complain about it, but I feel that it would not be fair to charge the renters as because we (including you) had a part in the "mess" that was left behind. It is actually standard practice for landlords to do a complete professional cleaning at least once a year (and especially when new tenants are moving in), but that was not performed when I moved in and when the other new tenants moved in as well.


In fact, the "dirtiness" is probably part of the "wear and tear" that is found in contracts, and tenants should not be penalized for it. The apartment, from what I understand of it had not been thoroughly cleaned for many many years (at least 4-5 years from what I've observed and heard); it would not make sense to penalize tenants as a result of the lack of professional cleaning that should have been maintained by the landlord.


Vania

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Jess Sheng 8月16日 发送至 Vania, shenwei, 我, Rui

主要是房东反反驳清洁问题

I completely understand. Honestly I do not mind paying for the cleaning cost. However if when you move in there are issues it is also your responsibility to bring it up at that time. All these complaints are coming much later than the fact. I have also brought up several times the option of having professional cleaners come in instead of us cleaning and splitting the cost while everyone was living there. this idea was shot down each time with the tenants opting to not pay instead saying they would keep the area clean on their own.

In conclusion I don't mind paying the cost, but I believe that if you have complaints then as tenants you should also inform the landlord at the time to solve the issue instead of leaving things until the end. Everyone has a part to play in this.

4


Jess Sheng 8月16日 发送至 Vania, shenwei, 我, Rui

主要是房东同意自己出钱打扫
还说到counter top的quote要来了

Just confirmed with my mom to make sure. We will cover the cleaning costs. :) you're definitely right we should get at least once yearly cleaning. But if you do see things at the time, it would be nice to be informed then (aside from the bathroom board/grout) so we can do something about it instead of not complaining and doing it on your own and later bring it up.

The counter top quote should be back later today and I will send that out.

5
..
Shen, Wei 8月16日 发送至 Jess, Vania, 我, Rui

主要是Wei说他没怎么住，应该承担最少的责任

Hi Jess,

Thanks for your message. I do agree with what Vania said about the cleansing issue. To be honest, I have rented many different places but never heard about that landlord bringing up this issue before. I do understand you, but just feel like it is a sunk cost that the house is getting older if there are people living there. But anyway, you did say you will cover the cleansing cost which is good to us. I appreciate!

In terms of the counter top, I did send you an email regarding this. Since I barely used the kitchen and given that I was not in Chicago from Monday to Thursday, I think I should be the least responsible for that by any means. I would like to have an open talk with everyone someday to discuss the distribution of responsibilities. Just let me know.

Anyway, thanks for summer's rent. I had a great time living there generally.

Wei

6

我 8月17日 发送至 Wei, Jess, Vania, Rui

这一段是我发给房东的

Hi Jessica,

I and my wife used the kitchen most during the period of June and July, we can take more responsibility for the situation of the counter top.

However, we don't think we tenants (Rui Vania Wei I and my wife) are responsible for the replacement of the counter top.

First of all, the guy named Peter from the company which installed the counter top made a phone call to me yesterday, explaining the situation of the counter top and answering some questions from me.
From what he said, we had these conclusions:
1) the reason of the changed color of the granite is probably the penetration of the oil or sauces;
2) this is only a matter of visual. This penetration will probably not effect how long this counter top can be used. This incident is different from things like 'you use hammers to knock the counter top' and 'you stand on the thin part (e.g in front of the sink) of the counter top to change some light bulbs', which both, among other improper ways of using, will do damage to the extent that affects the life of the counter top;
3) basically speaking, a granite counter top may be used for several decades, sometimes around 100 years;

Thus we do not think it is necessary to change the whole counter top to a new one.

Moreover, we tenants did't know and were not informed that oil and sauces on the counter top would do damage to it. I don't think this is common sense. your mom also thought the damage is due to other reason at the first time. Thus, we think we should be forgiven for this accidental mistake. What we did during these two months is just use the kitchen normally, maybe a little careless, but apparently we didn't DO any damage to it, let alone do any damage on purpose.

Thus we think the penalty for this kind of mistake should not be as much as paying for replacement of the whole counter top.

Last but not least, this amount of money is really huge for us international students. If we spend this extra hundreds of money out of our budget, it would be a huge burden for us. It's about the beginning of new semester, we are busy and will be more in a week. I think this is true for everyone that this incident affect our life a lot. I hope we can solve this soon.

We agree to pay for reasonable amount of money for the loss of visual appearance of the counter top, but not replacement of it.

I and my wife agree with Wei that we could meet and talk and discuss about this situation face to face, to figure out another solution than replacing the whole counter top.

Thank you all.

7

Jess Sheng 8月17日 发送至 我, Wei, Vania, Rui

这是房东给我的回复
房东在这里用了一个衣服的比喻，来说明灶台的问题已经到了一定要更换新的不可的地步

Hi Shi,

I'm glad that you spoke to Peter and he was able to explain the situation to you. You are right, it is a visual matter, it will not affect the use of the counter top, it is still stone. However, the entire purpose of installing a granite counter top is to enhance the value of the unit for resale in the future. The fact that there is a large oil stain on the counter top completely defeats the purpose of installing one in the first place. And if anything may decrease the value. It is like having a large oil stain on a shirt. It does not affect the wearability of the shirt or the fact that it still functions as a shirt, but it certainly decreases the value. As a consumer, I would not want to purchase a shirt that had an oil stain on it and I would see it as a damaged piece of clothing. The same translates over to the counter top.

As for this being common sense or not being told how to specifically use a counter top. I beg to disagree. Before we had those counter tops, even with the cheaper material we always placed paper towel underneath where we stored the cooking ingredients and this is something that both Rui and Vania can attest to. I would also change it periodically because it would get very oily. Same with putting dirty pots or pans directly on the counter top (don't know if this happened) but we would always use a mat or some sort in between the counter top and the pan unless it was clean/dry. Like I also said to you in a separate email, I've lived at my apartment now for over 3 months, longer than the time you were there, and I have had no issues with oil stains on my granite counter top. In addition, there were no specific instructions regarding care, but I'm sure if I left a large oil stain on it, I would be held 100% accountable even if I say no one told me how to care for it. Same with wood floors. I put felt on the bottom of my chairs so I won't scratch it. This was not told to me specifically, but if I left with large scratches on the floor, I also am sure I would be fined for the costs of repair. This argument can be used for anything in the living area - floor, microwave, oven, washer, dryer, toilet, etc.

And to address the point of doing damage on purpose or not, no one has ever said it was done on purpose. It simply happened and still, like I said above, has repercussions. Many times damage is doing inadvertently or on accident. It does not draw away from the fact that it happened. Mistakes are mistakes and like we all learn I'm sure in the professional world you have to make up for them in one way or another whether it's something you need to pay for or apologize for or do extra work, etc.

I understand that this is very expensive and that is why I think the discussion of how to reconcile this should be had. I do not think it is possible for everyone to meet face to face (I think Wei is also back at school in Indiana now, as am I for work). But like I said, I am open to discussing anything over email. If it is reasonable I of course will agree, as with the cleaning expenses for the apartment.

And again, to address your last line, the visual issue of the granite counter top is just as important as the functionality. The value greatly decreases when the visual aspect is damaged. Having a granite counter top with a large stain pretty much negates the value that it would add being there. A regular counter top without stains would probably be better. I again draw you attention to the comparison to clothing/purse/etc. A cheaper shirt without a stain still more desireable than one with a large stain.

8

我 8月17日 发送至 Jess, Wei, Vania, Rui

这是我当天给房东的回复，让她表明她的观点是想让我们100%支付更换费用

Hi Jassica,

I only saw your reasoning for this, but I'm not very sure about your conclusion.

I guess your conclusion is that 1) you still will replace the counter top in the near future and 2) we tenants should pay for the 100% of the replacing of it

Is that correct? Please let me know.

Thanks

9

Jess Sheng 8月17日 发送至 我, Wei, Vania, Rui

房东坚称：灶台一定要被换掉，没理由留着，并称谁需要对此负责就应该谁出钱

Whoever the responsible party is for the damage should be held accountable.  

The counter top needs to be replaced - like I said, there is no point in having it there if it is damaged.

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这之后我们就没有回复了，都在迎新和找人咨询

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10

Rui Li 8月19日 发送至 Jess, 我, Wei, Vania

另一个室友第一次出现了，两天以后

so there's no way for them to make the stain less noticeable?
and how much is it to replace it, didn't receive an email with the quote.

11

Jess Sheng 8月23日 (9 天前) 发送至 Rui, 我, Wei, Vania

终于发来了公司的报价，1750刀

Hey everyone,

I've attached what they sent my mom with the quote and their explanation. From what I've heard and what my mom has gathered from talking to the company, there isn't a way to get rid of the oil stain.

Let me know any questions you have, I'll try to clear them up or talk to the company and whatnot.

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之后就没有了交流。

我就各种找人问，跑学校法律咨询等等。但是学校法律咨询假期一直没人，开学后也还在招人，要到10月才有律师在。

现在的房东说我们如果需要，可以准备一下材料，她拿去给她的律师看看，让她律师帮忙写封信发给原来的房东。但是我也不知道有没有用。

因为暂时没法给出答复，我昨天给Jessica发了一个回复

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我 19:24 (23 小时前) 发送至 Jess, Rui, Wei, Vania

Hi Jessica,

Sorry about the delay.

I kept contacting legal consultation office of UIC during past weeks, but they still don't have an attorney in office now.

I'll keep trying to contact them as well as lawyers of some of my friends. I need to talk to them before I can take next step. I'll let you know.

Thanks

之后她在gtalk上问我是不是要准备打官司，让我如果要打官司要通知他们，他们好也请律师。
我说我只是想找专业人士问问，确认一下我们到底应不应该给钱。
然后她回复说反问我，难道不觉得应该是我们房客的全责么？她和她妈妈当时都没有住在那里啊！

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现在的问题是：

是不是房东想换counter top就能换掉，不管我们造成的损害是不是必须换，然后找我们出钱？我们需要怎么跟房东理论才能说服她要么不换，我们赔一点美观上的钱，要么我们赔一点钱，她们也出一部分换掉。总之就是deposit有没有希望退回来，能退回来多少？

patpat,遇到小气房东了。没有照片什么的证明之前什么样儿吗？

RehsuR 发表于 2012-9-2 22:00
patpat,遇到小气房东了。没有照片什么的证明之前什么样儿吗？

就是没有。当时即使看到了，也不会在意
. 1point3acres你觉得这个事情就只能赔全款了么？

一剑终情 发表于 2012-9-3 12:56
就是没有。当时即使看到了，也不会在意
你觉得这个事情就只能赔全款了么？

这个我还真不好瞎指挥，确实没遇到这种房东，我们顶多就是扣个清洁的钱，你们清洁要扣钱吗？如果请professional的来清理也许就不用了，无论如何也比自己清的干净。也许可以找个professional的过来看看那个countertop还能不能清干净？能清干净就好办了，我们当时退房的时候似乎countertop放油瓶儿调料的地方也变色了，但是房东没说什么，也没单独扣这方面的deposit，所以我感觉应该是能清理干净的吧，不至于这么严重要全换。赔全款有点儿夸张，她出租难不成还没一点儿成本了。。。。

她未必会换COUNTERTOP明摆着想要钱而已，所谓的估价，你们走了以后她会不会换难道会告诉你么？
你试试联系一下前任房客，如果他们能证明那块本来就有些变色就好办了。遇到这种房主也真没办法的，打官司我觉得肯定要花超过这个数。
当初我租房子有纠纷是找的学校国际部，国际部为我们联系了以为公益律师，免费的那种，后来双方协商免了至少一半以上的费用，不知道你们学校国际部是不是也会管这种事？

能否上图看看到底他们说的damage有到什么程度，一般来说如果是油渍应该可以咨询一下清洁公司可否清除

1. 你们搬进去的时候那里干净么？谁能证明那里干净？这是一个突破口，即使是打官司，谁主张谁举证，他们说是你们房客弄脏的，那必须证明你们搬进去之前是干净的。如果证明不了，我感觉这官司你们不会输。——这招慎用，先见律师。如果真是你们弄得也别说瞎话败人品。
2. 如果真是你们的调料油瓶弄脏的话，看看租赁合同里有没有相应的条款。这个显然属于日常损耗，让你们100%赔肯定说不过去——就拿他说的，难道我把他的木地板弄了一点磨损他就要换新的然后让我掏100%的钱？或者就算按他说的我给油壶下面垫纸，难道我晚换了1天留下了油渍，也要换新的然后房客掏100%么？除非租赁合同里写了，木地板划伤要赔新的，那么当然不用赔。你仔细看看你们的租赁合同里关于磨损的条款。
3. 除了学校的法律顾问，还可以咨询芝加哥市政府、芝加哥房屋租赁协会、房客保护组织等等。我的感觉是，消费者保护协会肯定有经验，说不定他们一句话你心就安了。
4. 我承认visual是重要的功能，但是显然不是全部功能。所以就算你应该赔，无论如何也不应该赔100%。
5. 同楼上，出于诚意，先看professional清洁公司能不能搞定。卖那玩意儿的公司肯定说清洁不掉，因为他们希望你换新的啊
6. 不怕打官司，小额法庭+学校律师应该要不了多少钱，而且胜诉方的律师费应该败诉方给出吧？我的态度是宁可把钱让律师赚去，也不要惯着这房东。只要律师费没有超过你们的security deposit太多。

Amanda_QY 发表于 2012-9-4 16:50
她未必会换COUNTERTOP明摆着想要钱而已，所谓的估价，你们走了以后她会不会换难道会告诉你么？
你试试联系 ...

就算最后要付钱，那也是按收据而不是quote给钱

lz 加油，虽然我不能提供啥帮助，我很讨厌这种房东，give him some color to see see。。。。

zach 发表于 2012-9-4 18:07
就算最后要付钱，那也是按收据而不是quote给钱

我在想，是应该按现在这块的receipt，还是应该按新换的receipt